Escaped Thoughts

Sat, Apr 19, 2008

Where Do We Go From Here?

I've been looking around at reactions to the release of Camino 1.6, and a lot of it could be summarized as: “So?” The points are generally valid; amid the hype around the upcoming release of Firefox 3 (and to some extent, all the WebKit hype), releasing a new version using Gecko 1.8 (as seen in Camino 1.5 and Firefox 2) is hardly ground-breaking. But then, it wasn't meant to be, which is why it's Camino 1.6, rather than Camino 2—that would have been more clear if we'd released it last November as we had originally hoped, but such is the nature of trying to do scheduling in a volunteer project. Camino 1.6 is, as it was intended, just an incremental improvement; nice if you were already using Camino, but not nearly as exciting to read about as Firefox 3. (Here's a hint for the people wondering why we didn't use Gecko 1.9 by the way: Gecko 1.9 development is very, very closely tied to Firefox 3 development, and Firefox 3 isn't out of beta yet.)

If it were just the unfortunate timing of releasing amid flurries of stories about how Firefox 3 is just around the corner and will bring about world peace and cut through tin cans without getting dull, having press coverage like “Good news for those of you who are part of the ever-shrinking community that still uses Camino” (thanks for the love, Ars) would be easy to ignore, but I think the real issue is a more lasting one: the change in Safari's place in the web.

In the past year or so, WebKit has made very significant advances in compatibility, the iPhone has raised WebKit prominence, site authors are finally starting to get the idea that locking out the browser that comes installed on the machines of 5+% of their potential visitors (as well as the only one available to iPhone users) is probably not a good idea, and Safari is available for testing (and with Drosera, potentially development) on Windows. All that adds up to far fewer people finding themselves in need of a browser other than Safari to use all the sites they need to, which used to be a big part of why people turned to Camino.

That leaves us competing almost entirely on browser features and UI. But things have changed there too: with Safari 3, Apple changed their approach and actually back-ported a new version of Safari to the previous OS, rather than just back-porting WebKit as they had been doing. Assuming that continues, historical OS X adoption rates tell us that new versions of Safari will be available to almost all Mac users, rather than only about half, and so we lose another large uncontested (by Safari) user base. In a head to head match between Apple and a handful of very-part-time volunteers, it wouldn't take much effort on Apple's part to move fast enough that we wouldn't be able to keep ahead of them.

To be clear, I'm not complaining. Camino is about giving users a sleek Mac browser that Just Works; if Safari is equally good at being the browser that we have been working to build, then users win, because the browsing experience we wanted to provide is pre-installed on their machines. And it's not like we are in this for the money. I'm also not saying I'm ready to hang up my hat just yet (nor am I in any way, shape, or form speaking for the Camino project; this is all just my own musing and opinions); just that I spend a lot of time recently thinking about what might be next for Camino. Certainly, in the short term, we work to get Camino 2 out there soon, based on Gecko 1.9 and with a few new features that we've ween working on tossed in for good measure. Beyond that, the path is (to me, at least) unclear.

Other's Thoughts

From the mind of El aura - Sat, Apr 19, 2008
A tough question

I share your point of view. For me Camino still feels better (and looks nicer) than Safari. Moreover, being completely open-source is another bonus point for it. It is good to have an OS-independent browser to keep the web as open as possible. Every OS should offer a choice of browsers (including a choice of rendering engines).
Ideally, Camino (and open-source and third-party apps in general) should stay competitive while providing innovation at the same time. The problem with open-source is that every new feature is already known to the competition (in this case Apple or WebKit) well before release, making it easy for them to implement it as well. The good news is that Gecko nowadays also has a corporation behind it, ensure that enough resources are put into it. As long as Safari on Windows remains marginalised (partly by being associated with Apple), Gecko will remain an important player, and with Camino we have a superb implementation of it on the Mac.

One area were Camino has an edge over Safari and where Safari might be reluctant to move in is privacy controls like Flash- and ad-blocking, or cookie management. Another area might be synching of bookmarks (and maybe cookies and autofill items) with other browsers on other OSes, eg, Firefox on Windows.

To summarize:
- different, nicer look
- open-source, competition, cross-platform
- privacy controls

I think apart from staying competitive with Firefox and Safari, the real killer feature might be a creative use of OS X's features and resources (something that is always in danger of being copied by Safari, I admit).

From the mind of Lars S.-H. - Mon, Apr 21, 2008

One reason why I prefer Camino over Safari is Camino's ability for shortcuts:

I have several of them like:

"google" which points to location: http://www.google.com/search?q=%s

so I can just type "google whatever" in the url bar and get Google to search for "whatever" this way. Similar things I also got for englisch and german wikipedia, for some online translators and so on. I really like that feature and use it a lot

From the mind of Peter Yang - Tue, Apr 22, 2008

As a longtime Camino user, I am intensely frustrated by the approach to Mac web browsing that Mozilla is taking. Camino IS the direct answer to Safari - it's a web browser with a slightly different feature set and the Gecko engine. People should use Camino in a sizeable proportion (some will always default to Safari). But instead they choose to use Firefox - the non Mac-like, Transformer browser - because of its heavy promotion as a "default" browser - not because it's the best one for the Mac.

Mozilla's mistake in using Firefox as the main platform is shown in all the changes they're making for Firefox 3 to make it look "more Mac like." They realized what I knew all along as a Mac user - trying to make things look standard across all platforms just doesn't work when you come to the Mac. Users expect a seamless, higher quality experience. They don't find it in Firefox, but if they don't like Safari, they "have no choice," and Firefox is "good enough" that most people can't tell the difference. Camino IS the answer - it uses less memory, it integrates better with the Mac environment, etc. etc...

The main issue is that updates are released so infrequently. I know I'm just an outside user (mostly lurk on the forums), but if you update a random bug, then just release it! It doesn't matter if the update contains just a few fixes - make some noise on Infinite Loop, TUAW, etc. More people should try out the trunk - it is what FF3 is using, after all, and tons of users are trying FF3 out now. I've been using it as my main browser for the past half year or longer and I don't have any huge issues. In fact, Camino beats FF3 on SunSpider by a small margin on my computer. And isn't what's good for Camino also good for Firefox as well?

Sorry that I'm venting, I'm just really tired of Camino being treated like a second-class citizen when it should be THE dominant Gecko browser on the Mac, period.

From the mind of Peter Yang - Tue, Apr 22, 2008

Quick followup - the way that the little guys grab attention is by being loud. I noticed that a lot of features made it into 1.6 all at once - but how about adopting a "release often" schedule and making each incremental improvement another update? Sparkle, the Find bar, OpenSearch support, slightly new icons, etc. - could have all been minor updates. Or release a few at a time. The more noise you make, the more people pay attention, and the more likely that people will come alongside and say okay, I believe in this, I want to help it out.

From the mind of Stuart - Tue, Apr 22, 2008

Anecdotal evidence is that most people use who use Firefox over Camino do so because of Firefox extensions, not because of PR.

From the mind of Peter Yang - Tue, Apr 22, 2008

Do we know how many Mac Firefox users actually have extensions on their computer? And you're sure it's not a publicity issue?

From the mind of El Aura - Sat, Apr 26, 2008
Firefox vs. Camino

I'd agree that a lot of people who say they prefer FF over CM do this because of the extensions. But most people using FF on the Mac might not even know about CM.
I think there are two problems:
- the 'power users' might to some degree prefer FF because of the extension, and the 'power users' are the ones getting most of the airtime and they are those who are listened to, they are those who take online polls
- a lot of the current Mac user base are relatively recent switchers, they were interested in something else that's why they might have used FF on Windows before they switched and so they simply continue using it (if they are not using Safari)
My personal anecdotal evidence is that among the Mac users I know, 80% are switchers. None of them uses Camino, most use Firefox. They don't know about Camino (even though I keep throwing it into the conversion every now and then). Hey, they are former Windows user, Firefox is good enough for them, they don't bother to look for something else. When I start talking about Camino to them, they get that look telling me they don't understand why somebody could bother to even think about a browser.

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